expert!

done

hmmmm

hmmmm indeed...

too many green numbers, i think i'm too tired for this.

Next song to get a horrible rendition on Karaoke Revolution: Paint It, Green.

go

my eternal sudoku song is from Love Story. ...where do I begin....

13 filled, green-time...

same here and green not helping much

its screwy

let's see if concentrating helps

huh - i took one guess and it all worked out... done.

congrats

must have hit the same guess... done

off to Babble land

babble is great today

how about that! One green and done in 12 minutes. Just find where to put the green. Happy Monday all.

hmmm... 11 filled in and getting slower

not one filled in...............

up to 19 nw

done... definitely used greens

Morning all

morning night walker... have a good day, I'm off

your done? Was it hard?

that's what she said, night_walker

You're all scaring me about today's. My wife is working on it now (she's silently lurking) and is telling me how bad it is

Darn, made a mistake, have to start over

On to today's... and go...

11 filled in on the first cross hatch pass + greens added.

13 in now and stopped dead. Can't find any X or Y wings or Unique Rectangles or hidden pairs.

I'm at the same place you are Andy

And Andy's wife (Andy here, I moved over to her computer so we can work together on this)

woot! an expert!

yep; stopped dead at 13. Don't want to guess!

Found a y-wing and an x-wing after that. But now I'm stumped again

Mondays are not good expert days.

oh #$% I hate it when a client sends an urgent bug report in the middle of a sudoku

we just found a type 4b unique rectangle

The 4b lead to the XY wing which lead to the X wing...

Idon't won't to guess but this is a tough one

Have to give kids a ride to friends house

I don't like having this many tri-value cells.

Found an XYZ wing... this is stretching my limits here...

Still only 13 filled in despite all of these eliminations

hmm, I also have 13 now after finding a hidden triple.

ah, I just marked all greens & guessed lucky on a pair. took me about 5 min.

haha, i just noticed it's an expert

i always feel i can do better if i don't look what the level is

I don't like the trial & error method, but I'm behind in the archives & have a lot of stuff to do today.

aa just guessed at a cell and solved it. I'm being anal-retentive and trying to solve it without that guess.

Then again, I have a lot to get done.

i just got to 13 myself.

lucky 13

hurshy: I agree. I'm doing Sat.'s Easy right now & wish I hadn't seen it was an easy first.

I found a y-wing, still haven't seen that xyz Andy mentioned.

I still refuse to learn all the terms you all throw around.

i haven't put in greens yet

i'm getting the sense i shall have to

OrangeSlice: How many have you filled in??

Thirteen.

lucky thirteen!

Where have I heard that before?

lotsa places!

And at 8:48AM :)

oh lol

and Friday the 13th coming up. Maybe it's a astral thing.

i'm a dolt

but this is good that we have an expert so i can practice these things OS taught me

oh oh i think i have a thing!

no maybe not

i should finish filling in the greens

Done. Nasty nasty nasty.

oh, don't say that

say... challenging

andy; trial & error???

don't hurt the poor little grid's feelings

My wife found a cell which she believed could only be one number. She couldn't really explain why to me but i tried it out and it worked. So, half-guess, half luck?

we may never know...

I would love to find out what the logical solution is. But now I must work.

hi all

can u tell me what she find ?

nonononononononono

:)

ok :))

Yeah... that'd be a spoiler...

OS, i'm looking at 1,3; 7,1; 8,3 - is that something?

Done with a guess

7 throws it off.

7... throws... what... of?

off

And this is exactly the reason why all the experts in the archives have absolutely no help in the chat log.

that and people do them on other days...

A hundred lines of "I guessed"

you said it can work if i have 3 in one cell and 2 in two other cells but i'm having trouble seeing how

You gave me three 2-value cells...

oh bummer, my 8,3 has 3 values

how have i not eliminated one there, hmmm

xyz-wing is a non-aligned triple, same principle as the xy-wing, but all three cells must be able to see something, where you can remove all 3 numbers. The only stipulation is that the three-value cell must be the 'root' of the technique, not one of the wings.

all THREE must be able to see something

ah.

but you're saying that this is an xy wing and i just stupidly have not eliminated one value.

It could be. We don't know if it is or not until that value is removed :)

but YOU removed it

and *I* have NOT

QED, i am stupid.

http://www.scanraid.com/BasicStrategies.htm#N
P

I did?

you said i gave you 3 2-value cells

and one of them i have 3 values in

so.

You did.

there is SOMETHING i have not removed that i should have.

that is a pretty good web site to help explain sudoku stratigies

"i'm looking at 1,3; 7,1; 8,3 - is that something?"

yes those were row col references.

er... oh.

lol

ok so now that you know what i meant, IS it something? i guess not cause they can't all 3 see something?

I see what you mean now, but I don't see anything all three of them can remove. The only cell they can all 'see' is the locked 1 directly above the trivalue cell.

hello everybody

right. see and i thought you were saying you had only 2 values in 8,3, so... hehehe

There is a y-wing involving that R7C1 cell, though. It expands to the right.

oh dear, what is a y-wing again?

hurshy check out that web site

i've read websites to no avail

exactly what we would have been looking at if R8C3 had two values in it :)

only orange slice, and a puzzle right in front of me, has done me any good with these advanced things

oh i thought that was an xy-wing

try this one tho, it's not to bad

i am getting confused about the names

oh oh oh i think i see it

ok give me a think minute.

that would have been an xyz-wing, the name comes from the three-value root cell.

no but i... so what is the diff between xy-wing and y-wing, if any?

Different names for the same technique.

phew.

ok but wait i don't see the xy wing, is it using 8,2 and 7,6?

the thing they both see i can't elim from

8,6 and 9,5

good golly

8.6 doesn't even have a similar set of numbers

you mean 7,6?

and that would be the root?

yes!

yes!

i think i see it!

did I say 8,6? lol, yes I mean 7,6.

ok i got it

i eliminated a value!

only i dunno if it helps any further, lol

Yeah, it doesn't solve anything, only removes a '2'.

bugger.

so are we at the exact same spot now?

i think i sees an xyz wing...

I haven't done anything fancy since there, so probably.

no, they don't all 3 see anything but locked cells...

I'm scanning for conjugates right now.

*is afraid to ask*

And trying to do something with the rectangle across the middle rows.

yeah those fours and nines are bugging me

the 8s are just everywhere, it's like 8 vomit

And I have to go in 5 minutes. Not sure I'm going to solve it this morning.

oh no!

what will i do then??

I'll be back this afternoon to finish it.

*sheepishly* what time?

Hey guys, the 2 that was eliminated inR7,C4 just opened a unique rectangle, I believe that will eliminate bunches of other 2's. Does anybody see it yet?

4 ish

eastern?

Unless I miss the bus, in which case it will be 6 ish.

Whatever time is on here. The site is 2 hours ahead of me.

a unique... where where???? i don't see one

Anyway, I'm out. bbl

so you're saying 2 PM pacific?

And good luck.

i've become a groupie. *hangs head in shame*

Probably, yes.

ttfn :)

hurshy---R6 Cols 1&8 R7 cols 1 & 8 e;im about 5 2's above them.

oh, but that has nothing to do with the 2 we just eliminated

is nice though

should have seen that

but you said BUNCHES... i've only elim'd those 2... hmmm

that upper middle box is tooooooooooooooo green

i found a unique rectangle in the middle strip - is that the one you guys are talking about, or are you ahead of me?

with 2's and 3's? that's what we're talking about.

ok, i think we're in the same place

and that place would be.... stuck.

with all these pairs there must be a wing somewhere

there's a xy-wing in the bottom

rooted in 7,6

k

after that, stuck stuck.

oh yes, that was the 2 you guys were talking about before

yeah.

so, there is an x-wing that allows you to eliminate three 2's

ok help me see that please!

there's two rows where there are only two spots for 2's

and these only spots also line up in columns

6 and 9

oh and 7

6 and 7 then

rows 7 & 8 in my case

wait, are you talking about numbers or rows?

kkk

rows

we're looking in different placs

places

row 8 has a ZILLION places for twos!

i said it wrong i'm sorry, rows 6 and 7

not awake yet

see :)

i mean si :)

i mean hahahaha, at least we both have the same thing

i'm going to have to come back to this

sorry

ok thanks for the x-wing

:)

good luck!

hmm... I have 3 in row 7

hmm... I have 3 in row 7

that must be because you didn't do the xy-wing yet

the one that is rooted in 7,6

i am starting to feel a little smarter

though why, i dunno, i have found nothing good on my own, only with people pointing them out.

but at least i understand the things! that is a step.

ok, so the consensus is that X-Wing is the first strategy to unblock things here?

it's time to start greens :(

no, the xy-wing has to come before the x-wing

and also you have to do the unique rectangle before the x-wing

damn

and even after the x-wing, i'm still rather stuck...

# XY-Chains
# XYZ-Wing lol.. .these names are so dorky

yes, rather.

friendless, brainless, helpless, hopeless!

I'm finding some of these strategies insanely complex

well yes, that's the fun of it

at some point, you're better off trying a value for a square that has only two values - and seeing if that leads to an impossibility

cause then once you finally understand them you can be all smug

nonononono

some of the experts here can take solvers over a hundred steps - which would take an entire day to any reasonnable human

orangeslice promised me i never have to force.

"better off" in the sense of like um, yeah, if you want to do other things

but not better off in the sense of ultimate happiness

hey, all that got me was 2 more numbers

I still have to apply some strategy to it :)

:)

it's like the belgian nuns who made rachel's imaginary wedding veil

there's got to be a way to figure out what places the best guesses can be made

even though they lost their sight, it was worth it...

I have a programming background. I don't think humans should use brute-force to solve problems like these. I'm more interested in finding strategies that make best use of our talents

can you find a strategy to make the best of my talents (ie get me a JOB)

for most people, a JOB isn't the best use of their talents :)

well sitting around doing sudoku and chatting with people online is presumably not the best use of mine... at least a job would be some improvement

in a couple hundred years people will look back upon our era, shocked at what we considered normal- just as we look back upon serfs

yeah, i know what you mean.

i have lots of objections to the world of work, yet i need something to doooooooooooooooooooo

that and i'm leaving my husband and have to support myself.

dangitall this is a very hard puzzle

hurshy, are you using red and greens?

greens, yes

and have used one unique rectangle, one xy-wing, and one x-wing

finally!

so, why not the second colour?

what good would the second colour do? unless you mean a forcing chain

and orangeslice PROMISED

How do you make the reds?

alt-click

thanks

yes, why not forcing chains?

because they are CHEAP

unsatisfying

and orangeslice has promised me that they will never be necessary

i used them before cause people said they were the only way

but now i have seen the light, and orangeslice is my sudoku salvation

i am putting my faith in him

ok

not that there's anything wrong with forcing chains...

I think, everything is possible

i just don't WANT to have to use them.

clear enough :)

hurshy - i found an xyz wing too, but so far that has only removed one possibility for me

i'm insane, yes.

oh oh where krys!!

i'm not sure yet whether i believe orangeslice about the no-forcing-chain thing

top strip

let me see let me see

first two boxes

what, 1-2-8?

yup

but he said if it is xyz instead of just xy they have to ALL be able to see the cell where you want to eliminate

ohhhh and they do see 3,3

yup

so, think think

i can't get my head around it yet

hon, we can call it forcing chains or we can call it nishio or whatever we want, but the elaborate game of "wnat-if" is just as valid as other solving techniques

which thing am i going to eliminate in 3,3?

think about that "hinge" square, the 1-2-8

the 8, right?

run through all the possibilities

yeah

i get it!!!

ok, I just took a screen shot of the puzzle at this point and when you and orangeslice figure out how to do it without "what-if", you can explain it to me... but i"m going to the dark side

okey doke

i bet we need a wxyz wing!

lol

yeesh

this is hilarious really

i'm done. very keen to see what you come up with, but i must get started on my day :)

good luck

Go. Cross hatches hard to find.

Lots of virtual crosshatch.

ugh

me no likey

Uh oh. Bad guess.

Done. But I had to guess.

Finally!!! Guessed too much!!! Done!!!

Hey Leigh

yo

are you in class right now? i don't know where you sit.

Done! Had to use greenies and made 2 correct guesses but no backtracking.

I'm here. How do you feel about Bannings after class?

I promise not to whine this time.

lol

I'm going to the affirmative action thing, then going home and having lunch with chris

you might be able to convince Andy, though

and I am certainly up for celebratory "brief is done" hanging out this evening

Sounds good!

Anything in mind?

not really

Andy said he wanted to play WoW, and while that sounds good, I think I might be feeling more sociable.

Hmmmmmm... beer and TV?

certainly a possibility

is anything good on on mondays?

Or happy hour at Salvidore Mollies?

hmm, that probably involves spending more money

Only is heros starts again this week.

true

*if

hmmm

checking NBC's websit

e

not till April 23 :-(

Darn

The long-awaited D&D game?

i think we're doing that on wednesday

I see

also, Aaron's character sheet didn't get saved, so remind me to have Kenny redo it

Knitting?

possible

although knitting + drinking = bad, for me anyway

drinking + settlers?

There you go!

Sounds good to me.

cool.

how's torts class?

damn...i'm late

go

done

uh oh dont you hate it when you get so far and realize you screwed something up

Hey Ypsi

go

whew, done.

done

hey Lara I am back

but you are not here... going to babble land...

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i give up

But you're so close!

The key is quite simple really, it's almost silly.

It doesn't exactly jump out at you, but you'll be slapping your forehead when you see it.

what's the fancy name for how to solve today's puzzle, orange?

I'm not sure there is one. I'll call it "invisible conjugates"

hmmm... i've been trying "banging my head against the wall," but it's not working

Bivalue cells that, whichever value they end up as, directly affect a cell aligned with them that shares no common candidates.

hey les!

Hi nat

Done at last. It took 2.5 hours.