start

ding

"By freedom, too many Americans think, 'My desire to do whatever I feel like, even if it causes great harm to others, is more important than that harn, because I'm me.'" I would love to see some data that supports this accusation.

I am a firm believer in individual rights, but it may not be as evident that I believe that my rights stop where your rights begin and your rights stop where my rights begin; no one has rights superior to anyone else. And our rights (the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness defined for all US citizens in the Declaration of Independence) imply the right to live our lives as we wish and to pursue happiness as we think best, provided only that we respect the equal rights of others to do the same. The Declaration of Independence goes on to say "that to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed."

KT, I think the protesters at several state capitols, protesters who were not wearing masks or keeping reasonable distance from the police, are too many Americans who are placing their desires above potential harm to others. Risking death from sars-2 covid-19 qualifies as "great harm" in my book.

This is not to say that we should not be allowed to protest. Some of the protesters have violated the Libertarian ideal that your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. This virus, unfortunately, seems to have a wide swing. In my town of about 11,000 we already have over forty residents dead from the virus. Great harm.

"...are too many Americans who are placing their desires above potential harm to others."I call BS. What has happened of the past 3 months is a complete circumvention of the basic rights and freedom of Americans. There is no debate here; unless someone believes the Govt has the right to suspend those freedoms AT WILL...that's not how this place, USA, works. The end game of the C19 event will be archived as an over reaction to an influenza strain TO A GREATER DEGREE than either the original SARS strain (8? years ago) and the 2017 Flu season. The later infected 40,000,000 US Citz and contributed to 50,000 deaths.

By taking the IMMUNITY out of the "herd", the pop between 2yo and 35yo, will contribute to the infections and deaths. Virus are attacked and eliminated by the INFUSION of ANTIBODIES into the HERD. In other words, by keeping the immune IN the broad population...not taking it out. Big mistake.

Over SIXTY PERCENT of the infections and deaths are in FIVE STATES, in the NE, in HIGH DENSITY POPULATION CENTERS. The rest of the country...nothing diff than a standard flu season. Those are facts. Why NY/ NJ? concentrations of people WHO CHOSE NOT TO DISTANCE. That choice as personal. The impact has been devastating. Maybe they learned something? I hope so.

Deaths...anyone look at the stats? 95% of the deaths have been in the same pop age groupings as A REGULAR FLU SEASON...fact. Who has NOT BEEN AFFECT in a greater degree...the BALANCE OF THE POPULATION - 2 to 60yo.

what are you 'recommending' ik911 - I am finding hard to follow your reasoning?

lk, the reason that the concentration of the virus is currently evident in a few coastal states is because those are transportation hubs. The virus travels with humans. It is in the process of spreading to the rest of the country.

The rest of what you wrote is not what infectious disease experts are saying. Thinning the herd is certainly happening. Do we really want the amount of culling necessary to achieve herd immunity? Again, that strikes me as great harm.

Covid-19 is 10 times as deadly as the flu. It spreads faster than the flu even though it has a longer incubation period: the R0 is a lot higher. And there is no vaccin. Letting it just happen would killl millions of Americans.

Easy enough, but not cute. 10.

go

done

done

start

done

So far I have not seen or read a shred of evidence that supports the proposition (I call it an accusation) that "... too many Americans think ..." How does the person who wrote that know what "TOO MANY" Americans think? Sure there are people who flaunt rules - They are the exception - not "too many"

KT, a simple search (google, bing, duckduckgo, or whatever you prefer) of "crowds without masks protest stay at home orders" will come up with lots of pictures that illustrate what I consider to be too many. It has been all over the news from many, many outlets.

So "too many" is some nebulous number that you define?

That's hardly data - more of an opinion.

My point is that I see things all the time I find aggravating or confounding. It would be silly of me to conclude that "too many Americans think" similarly.

It only takes one person. Let' call her Typhoid Mary.

Very clever Helen. It certainly only takes one person with Covid-19

Thank you kindly, Stewart

done

Public discussion of the coronavirus pandemic has largely degenerated from scientific and reasoned debate into fragmented mudslinging using meaningless performance indicators and wild forecasts. If we genuinely want to arrive at generally agreed strategies we need to cut through the clamor and focus on what really matters.

At the top of my list of what really matters is deaths. Death counts, estimates and forecasts. Nothing matters more.

But we have to count the deaths correctly and completely, and the same applies to forecasts of deaths. It's not just a matter of how many people are killed directly by coronavirus infections, in fact far from it. The real death counts should also include the deaths caused by the consequences of different strategies.

For example, a year-long strict lockdown policy would be expected to create major economic and social disruptions including food shortages, malnutrition, other health care challenges including long delays for surgical procedures, increases in homelessness and crime rates, including violent crime, and increases in mental illness, all of which would tend to drive death rates higher.

Realistically, it could take many years to recover from the consequences of such a scenario, especially if no effective vaccines are discovered and the coronavirus returns in new waves for years to come.

This is why the issue of area-wide, country-wide or world-wide immunity is so important. It is widely believed with good reason that a person who survives a wave of a potentially fatal infection has a better than average chance of surviving future waves of the same illness. And that needs to allowed for in forecasts of death counts.

Note that the derogatory propaganda term "herd immunity" is commonly used in an attempt to repel people from this line of thinking. Propaganda often works against itself once it has been revealed.

Done